Post-Debate Commentary, Part 2

From A Republican Daily Dish Reader:
"Two things struck me as crucially important:...." (click here for full post)

And Another One:
They are killing me. I am a registered Republican. I live in Virginia. But I am clearly not a "Virginia Republican". This ticket and loathesome campaign is a disaster - I haven't left the Republican Party so much as it has left me, at least here in the Commonwealth......" (click here)


And the Washington Post endorses.................................

The Daily Dish Pundit Debate #3 Roundup

One stop shopping for a summary of the reactions.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 8, 2008

DEBATE #2 RECAP/Notable items for 10/8/08

8:55pm
#8. See new video below; Obama spokesman Gibbs and Hannity go at it; Hannity doesn't fair too well (in my opinion).

7:26pm
#7. I NEED TO POINT THIS OUT AGAIN. I don't understand why nothing has been done about Hannity and his having Andy Martin do the "expert" "documentary" on Obama. The fact that the Anti Defamation League (ADL.org) has NOTHING on their site about this man who as an attorney in New York filed so many frivolous lawsuits he was banned from filing more without prior permission, and: (is this not slander?)

In a New York bankruptcy case, he referred to a judge as a "crooked, slimy Jew." During the bankruptcy dispute, he filed a civil-rights lawsuit claiming Jewish bankruptcy judges and lawyers were conspiring to steal his property. He asked a court to bar "any Jew from having anything to do with plaintiff's property."

In another motion in the case, he wrote: "I am able to understand how the Holocaust took place, and with every passing day feel less and less sorry that it did, when Jew survivors are operating as a wolf pack to steal my property."

3:35pm
#6 Campaign Rally: McCain
"Across this country, this is the agenda I have set before my fellow prisoners and the same standards of clarity and candor must now be applied to my opponent."

11:02am
#5. DES MOINES DEBATE-WATCHERS FEATURED IN A NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE! This was brought my attention by Kelli Griffis; who was quoted here. Iowans rule, no doubt about it.

10:50am
#4. "New Financial Definitions"
I'm posting something I received from Mike in my office. It's a (humorous) "dictionary" of financial term- I've posted it as a "comment", click comments below.

10:45am
#3. ROLLING STONE: MAKE BELIEVE MAVERICK (Wow- this packs a pretty hefty punch)

10:38am
#2. Andy McCarthy, The National Review, "You Guys Are Nuts" (He is an ultra-conservative)
"With due respect, I think tonight was a disaster for our side. I'm dumbfounded that no one else seems to think so. Obama did everything he needed to do, McCain did nothing he needed to do. What am I missing?"

9:33am
#1. Daniel Larison, (Eunomia Blog on amconmag.com)
"If someone is not very proficient at lying and smearing his opponents and gives the impression that even he knows what he’s saying is nonsense, that somehow proves that he is honest and decent at heart. The correct view is exactly the opposite–if McCain knows the truth, doesn’t really believe what he’s saying and tells lies unconvincingly, that is evidence of the far deeper corruption of the man. Instead of being badly misguided or misinformed, he willfully says things that he knows have no merit or that he knows are unworthy of anyone in his position. In short, being a bad smear artist does not make someone ethical or honorable; it makes him unethical and incompetent. " Click here for full post.

"THAT ONE"

Take what you want from the statement "that one", but TPM was all over the handshake that wasn't tonight, after the debate. And when you hear CNN's voice over; it does seem pretty clear McCain can't bring himself to deal with Obama personally. I call it a Dennis The Menace complex; grumpy old man, I don't think it was racial at all.
UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan posted a picture of them shaking hands at the very end while still in front of Brokaw (remember they were in front of his teleprompter? And Andrew rechecked his DVR and confirms this; so I'm also removing the TPM video. You can link to it above, because it still shows some disdain, in my opinion, but it makes more sense why there was not a handshake.

DURING DEBATE #2

9:42pm
ROUND UP TIME
READ MY LIPS: HOOVER WAS NOT THE LAST PRESIDENT TO RAISE TAXES IN TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES: (FROM cbsnews.com)
"McCain: Wrong on Hoover
McCain: "My friends the last president to raise taxes during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover..."
Not true. The National Bureau of Economic Research says the recession in the 1990's began during the administration of the first President Bush and lasted from July 1990 to March 1991. U.S. Treasury says President Bush raised taxes in October, 1990."

LOOK WHAT ANDREW SULLIVAN JUST POSTED. I'M SPEECHLESS.
"10.33 pm. This was, I think, a mauling: a devastating and possibly electorally fatal debate for McCain. Even on Russia, he sounded a little out of it. I've watched a lot of debates and participated in many. I love debate and was trained as a boy in the British system to be a debater. I debated dozens of times at Oxofrd. All I can say is that, simply on terms of substance, clarity, empathy, style and authority, this has not just been an Obama victory. It has been a wipe-out.It has been about as big a wipe-out as I can remember in a presidential debate. It reminds me of the 1992 Clinton-Perot-Bush debate. I don't really see how the McCain campaign survives this."
9:29pm
What don't you know? Obama: Great humor about Michelle. Women didn't react as well, though. Food stamps: unbelievable with women, steadily rising with men. At the very top, flat lining at the top, actually with women. WOW WOW WOW
McCain: "what I don't know is what the unexpected will be". Isn't that the definition of "unexpected"? Audience isn't buying his poor me story. But the women like his great country schtick. Another with the "steady hand at the tiller". Wha?

9:25pm
RE: Israel: Good personal moment with McCain with the military audience member. But EVERY TIME he criticizes Obama the CNN approval #'s go DOWN. Again w/"my friend". And copying the Holocaust! Again, my friend!
Obama: A quick dip, now he's up; almost to the top. he talks directly to the person asking the question. Not wandering. This is good. Goes down when he starts to get technical.
THE MEN ESPECIALLY RESPOND WELL TO THE MEETING W/O PRECONDITIONS. The McCain slam on this is not working, especially with women.

9:16pm
Obama going steadily up on his Afghanistan response. Let's watch McCain: a ski slope downslide when McCain takes over the Afghanistan question. And goes down more, especially with MEN, when he starts on the "Obama was wrong on Iraq" (my friends). And he just said "workin'". He's been around Palin too long.

9:13pm
Obama played the "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran". Good strong response. McCain just asked permission, which 538 chided Obama for.

9:05pm
What a mistake; McCain. He's said "my friends" in 15 seconds. He doesn't answer the question he talks about Iraq again. Cool hand? Uh, that would be Obama. Talking about humiliation is not a good doctrine. Talking about Marines dying at the hands of poor government; blood? This is doing ok with the response meter but it was going down hill for a while. he copies Obama's Holocaust and Rwanda.

9:03pm
Obama Doctrine: GOOD move bringing up the Holocaust and Rwanda. He's making the point that he is NOT against military action. Even the most ardent peace-seekers can't argue with that one. The world cruelty, good. Can't be everywhere, good. Darfur. He's hitting it out of the park. he's at the top of the response meter; the women love Obama.

8:54pm
No one laughed at McCain's gold plated Cadillac hair plug joke.

8:27pm
Women's score just went way up as Obama was talking. As Andrew Sullivan said, Obama looks old. It's not his fault; but he's sort of meandering around the stage and seems a little disjointed.

8:13pm
John McCain: Says Barack Obama was 2nd highest recipient of money from Fannie/Freddie. That was from friends & family of employees. When you factor in money from Fannie/Freddie DIRECTORS and LOBBYISTS, McCain received over $190K, Obama: about $139K.

Palin Found Out Today About McCain Pulling Campaign From Michigan

I haven't seen a lot about this, but in an interview with Fox's Carl Cameron, she said, "when I read that this morning".

CNN: Did Obama Really Vote To Raise Taxes 94 Times?

Factcheck.org, a non-partisan project of the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center, pieced through records to determine just what these 94 votes were. Key findings:

-23 were against proposed tax cuts
-7 were "for measures that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on a relative few, either corporations or affluent individuals"
-11 were to increase taxes on people making more than $1 million a year, to help fund programs such as Head Start, school nutrition, or veterans' health care
-53 were votes on budget resolutions or amendments that "could not have resulted by themselves in raising taxes," though many "were clear statements of approval for increased taxes"
- The total includes multiple votes on the same measures

Annenberg says a close look at the record reveals that Obama has "voted consistently to restore higher tax rates on upper-income taxpayers but not on middle- or low-income workers."

Verdict:
Misleading. McCain's summary ignores the fact that some of the votes were for measures to lower taxes for many Americans, while increasing them for a much smaller number of taxpayers. A nonpartisan examination also finds that the 94 total includes multiple votes on the same measures and budget votes that would not directly lead to higher taxes.

Blinkin' and Drinkin'

My biggest issue with the Charlie Gibson interview was Sarah's hair. (o.k., my biggest VISUAL issue; the auditory issues speak for themselves). AGAIN with the hair! She is blinking like a little kid; oops, now she's brushed it out of the way.

For those that missed these: our drinking rules of the night were (sent out by Amanda, modified from Huffington Post):
(watch out, you'd be drunk by now, at 8:29pm!)

(click on comments for the drinking game; I posted them as a comment).

Palin's Debate Style

Anchorage Daily News:


On the other side of the stage, Palin simply needs to do what she's always done best during debates: fill the room with her presence and stick to scripted sound bites. With limited interaction, thus less chance of going off message, Palin can definitely hold her own.

Should It Matter That McCain Didn't Wear A Flag Pin?

From David Turner, Dayton, OH: What about John McCain not wearing a flag pin on his jacket during the first debate. If a Repbulican goes without a flag pin, he's confident in his patriotism and has nothing to prove? And if a Democrat goes without a pin he's unpatriotic or worse? Just wondering.

Here is where Rep. Jack Kingston, (R-GA) on Feb. 27th, 2008 said it was "o.k." to question Obama's patriotism for not regularly wearing a flag lapel pin.

Time Magazine ran a story May 14, 2008, questioning whether Senator Obama was flip-flopping on the issue.

But, as David points out, Senator McCain gets no such flack.

What Is Behind John McCain's Total Lack Of Eye Contact With Barack Obama

Josh Silver @ TPM has a great take on this, and the comments are the best. Whenever you can start making analogies to primate behavior, you know it's getting good.

I think people really are missing the point about McCain's failure to look at Obama. McCain was afraid of Obama. It was really clear--look at how much McCain blinked in the first half hour. I study monkey behavior--low ranking monkeys don't look at high ranking monkeys. In a physical, instinctive sense, Obama owned McCain tonight and I think the instant polling reflects that. (TPM reader, TB)

Chris Matthews (MSNBC) and Eugene Robinson (Washington Post) discuss:

Sullivan: Obama seems calm and cautious but then ... you realize he cleaned your clock.

Andrew Sullivan: Why Obama Won Big.

As I mentioned in a previous post about why TPM thought some were saying McCain won the debate, he points out this, from Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com:

The CBS poll of undecideds has more confirmatory detail. Obama went from a +18 on "understanding your needs and problems" before the debate to a +56 (!) afterward. And he went from a -9 on "prepared to be president" to a +21.

Assessment by TPM As To Why Some Say McCain Won The Debate (When The Polls Did Not)

This makes a lot of sense to me. All of the general polls show Obama winning the debate from what I have found so far. But quite a few pundits disagree. Even David Yepsen from our paper, The Des Moines Register; handed it to McCain. Why?

Here's part of this article:

Obama’s eye contact was directly with the camera, i.e. the voters at home. McCain seemed to be speaking literally to the people in the room in Mississippi, but figuratively to the punditry. It is no surprise that a small majority of pundits seemed to have thought that McCain won, even when the polls indicated otherwise; the pundits were his target audience.

TPM: Initial Polls Show Obama Winning The Debate

And, in the commentary on the site, here's an observation from the poster debbiedoesnothing;
(click title to see full post)

've already posted this in a couple of other threads but I think Palin's off the ticket and Giuliani's on. Just a hunch.

Palin was remarkably absent from the spin machine after the debate, which is normally a VP's job. Biden did a great job on Countdown while nobody's heard from Moose girl.

We all know McCain needs another gimmick to distract people. Palin's going to give a tearful goodbye speech about how she didn't know how vicious the press would be in attacking her family and it's taking a toll on her children, and as a good Christian mom, she has to put her kids first.

She has to do it in a way that her evangelical base won't hold it against McCain. He'll play the whole thing for a sympathy vote for himself.

What Kissinger Really Said About Iran

I believe that Senator McCain said that Henry Kissinger did not say that he would meet with Iran with no conditons. Correct me if I'm wrong. But here's what Kissinger actually did say:

Kissinger, speaking Monday at George Washington University along with four other former U.S. State Department secretaries, said the next president should initiate high-level discussions with Iran "without conditions," ABC News reported.(click title for full story)

You did NOT just slam ethanol, did you Senator?

BROOK SAID IT, and Nate on www.fivethirtyeight.com liveblog of the debate concurs....


8:29 CDT: [Nate] McCain, calling out ethanol subsidies as a bad thing, would seem (correctly) to have recognized that he's lost Iowa.